Hey guys,
I've been planning, researching and budgeting for a Cobra build for a couple of years, but other things have gotten in the way for awhile now, and into the foreseeable future. I'm really itching to do something toward my car, so I'm starting to think about building the engine.
I'd like to build a carbed 351W (perhaps bored a bit, but not stroked) with a target of around 400 fwhp. Is that realistic? Am I likely to save any money over buying a crate motor?
I've never been inside an engine before, though I do understand how engines work and can identify most of the parts and pieces. I think I've got most of the basic tools, and I'm happy to have an excuse to buy whatever I'm missing.
Am I nuts to take this on alone, as a complete novice? Is there a "must-have" book that could guide me through the process step-by-step? This book (http://www.amazon.com/Rebuild-Small-Block-Ford-George-Reid/dp/1932494049/ref=sr_11_1/103-7448387-2937435?ie=UTF8&qid=1194925244&sr=11-1) (link to Amazon) seems a likely candidate and is well-reviewed. Does anyone own it and can comment on its usefulness?
Has anyone used these PAW Engine Kits (http://www.pawinc.com/UnassembledBlkList.html) before? Good parts? Decent value? They seem like a good idea to someone who wouldn't know how to choose matching parts "a la carte". Would their 351W kit provide the power I'm after? Are there other, similar kits available elsewhere?
Any advice would be appreciated...
Thanks,
-Eric
Eric, here is my bad advice! ::)
You have many options and ways to go, all of which will cost a lots of money and provide different results based on your plan.
Perhaps a used 351w with low mileage would be a good start, then modify it to your liking. Such as alum heads, cam, and carb set up, this way you will get all the necessary engine componants with the motor and save money.
You could also search for a good complete motor that somebody wants to sell that is already built with a lot of goodies and high HP..buy it from somebody that will stand behind it.
Another way would be to buy a junker and rebuild the entire thing yourself, if most of the stuff ( internal parts) are good you can save that way, but you will still incur a lot of special parts costs.
Then as you mentioned PAW, they sell a lot of good stuff. As long as you get some good advice from somebody that knows engines it would be a fun project to build one that way.
Lastly, crate motors, short blocks, long blocks all come with some type of warranty but cost more money so there you have it.
Perhaps you can research on the Cobra Club site to locate a motor and good building tips to help you figure out what is best for you.
Best Regards, Bill ;)
I think I read the same book that refers to the engine kits you mentioned. Could be a good way to go but keep in mind that you'll have another $1500 or so to add to the kit cost for intake, carb, accessories, etc. If you've never built an engine before, it might be wise to get a really cheap motor from a junk yard, tear it down and put it back together just for the experience. Doesn't have to be
Eric, everyone had to start with a "first" motor build, so I don't see that as a problem, except for certain machining procedures which will need to be done by a machine shop, anyway.
I've built quite a few motors of the Ford persuasion and have been pretty successful. One recommendation I would make is to have a place where you feel comfortable laying out all the parts as you take the engine apart. It will be important for you to be able to leave them there for a while, too--you don't want to have to move a set of lifters/pushrods/rocker arms that you laid out on a kitchen table, hoping to keep them in order, when it's time for dinner.
Get a good digital camera and take photos of pieces before you remove them. You'd be surprised how difficult it is to get that timing pointer back on correctly when it fits 3 or 4 places and you don't remember which one is correct.
Some steps that most beginning engine builders don't really know about or how to perform are ridge reaming, ring end-gapping, checking the clearances on the crankshaft, setting the crank correctly, degreeing in the cam, etc. There is a lot to do and if you have a good book to guide you through it, you're steps ahead already, but there are also some things that nothing other than experience will reveal.
OK, now for the hard part--if it were me, and I were building my first kit, I guess I would want to make sure there was absolutely no chance that the project could be siderailed by any sort of engine problem. Crate motors are pretty inexpensive, IMHO, and for a first project they might offer valuable peace of mind.
So, if it were me, I'd make sure I had a motor that was problem free at first, then after I had a chance to drive the project for a while, I'd consider building my dream motor for myself. It would make a good winter project.
What might be more important, IMHO, is getting the drivetrain assembled in advance--I mean getting the flywheel, clutch assembly, and transmission all connected. That can be a pretty good project and if you are looking for a chance to do something in preparation for the project, that might satisfy that "itch".
Good luck, let us know what you decide, OK?
Doug 8-)
Eric as most have said you have to start some place. Hit some of your local machine shops. Chances are you will find a machinest [gear head]that will give you good advice. There are alot of variables in the kits that they advertize in the magazines. Run!!! :o. For one thing you won't know any of your clearances...Bearing, rings pistons ect. If you find a good machinest he can beat most mail order companies and will be able to order the correct parts one time. Not to mention having a good core to start with. If you are not comfortable with the assembley of the short block have the mach. assemble it and you do the rest. As I said earlier there are a lot of variables when it come to matching parts. Will the cam you want match the valve springs to your heads? Compression ratio? Find a good machine shop[ford GURU] if you can. I hope this helps. I am lucky to have a machine shop in my area that is a wealth of knowledge and likes to help the average Joe out. Good luck! Darren
Hi Eric,
First, the book you mention is a great place to start. I have it, along with 6 or 7 others listed on Amazon. They all have alot of the same info, but each one differs also. Each one has some info the others do not. Each one shows different techniques and ways to build the motor. I would urge you to have as many sources of info as you can. Try the local library for shop manuals too. I have found that I go back to them time and again.
Second, I strongly considered the PAW kits when planning how to build my motor. They are a good start for those inexperienced in parts selection. The books mentioned above have sections on parts selection. There are other "kit" sellers out there too, as well as assembled short blocks and long blocks. All the previous comments about checking clearances and such apply. Even if you buy an assembled short block, you should double check everything!
I chose to build my own engine from the ground up. I did order some parts in "kit" form, like the balanced rotating assembly. This helped save some time.
I also have experience in engine building, so this task did not seem to be more than I could handle. I just really wanted to build the thing from scratch, and didn't much care if I saved a few bucks, or if I had a few problems. I was going for the experience.
I would second the recommendations from everyone about finding a good machine shop. I would also recommend that you don't build it alone. Get as many experienced people involved as you can. Even inexperienced people can help alot. A second set of eyes, an extra pair of hands, a different viewpoint. It all helps. You will probably have alot of curious friends and neighbors who you can enlist for things like degreasing and painting. (Adult Beverages required and encouraged....)
Buying a short block, and having a more "bolt together" build might be more enjoyable for you. Or even starting with a long block.
Anyway you go, even with a crate motor, there will still be things you need to buy and install.
I think your engine choice is very do-able. I originally was going to do a 351 Windsor, but changed to a 302 stroked to 341. You might also want to consider a 302 based motor. They are smaller and lighter and can easily be made to approach the HP and TQ you are thinking of. They also are easier to cram into the engine bay!
You will find a lot of experience and advice on this site. As you can read, there are alot of different approaches. Do what you are comfortable with and have fun. Thereare alot of people here who would enjoy seeing you succeed, and will help when asked!
Good Luck,
Evan
HM1103, 341 Stroker, IRS w/3.27, Willwoods all around
Couple of good resources for you...
http://www.boxwrench.net/
They have a great video for $30 that shows you how to rebuild and engine.
There are also some good books you can buy for cheap at Amazon.com, eg. Rebuilding Ford SMall Block Engines. and Ford Performance V8's on a Budget.
I've learned a lot from these things.
I just purchased a 460 Big Block from a guy locally for $180 (the whole engine). Sweet deal! It's from the 70's I think. Won't know for sure until I get inside it and look at the casting numbers.
I'm in the same situation as you, but I'm learning.
Joe
Eric,
A friend of mine in Dallas has a 347 Ford in his Backdraft which makes the power you are describing (and a small bit more). He is looking to sell and upgrade to a KC Genesis. We have never talked price, but the engine is a creampuff.
If you are interested, check the idle and squat on takeoff in Patrick's Surprise.mov and the open hood look-see in June 2007 Meeting.mov on my Verizon homepage. The maroon 42 car.
The 347 has the same bolt pattern as the 351w, so your Hurricane setup would not have to be altered. This may be an economical solution for you and get you on the road fast.
John
Just FYI, The 351 is a taller block than the 302. The motor mounts are similar, but the headers are different.
Evan
Holy cow, you guys are great! ;D
Eric,
The '99 engine is the one you want. It has GT40P heads which was a Ford Racing head back in it's time. Read this article about them http://www.stangpro.com/html/articles/gt40p_files/gt40p1.htm. With an E303 cam [or Trickflow Stage 1], a high flow dual plane intake and a 600CFM carb, it will be a good 340 ft.lb, 300+ HP street engine. Or, you can go EFI and get same results. Lot's of info on the web about them. Start your research and you can spend days reading and learning all about it.
Eric,
Welcome to one of the best kits available. Keep in mind your clearance issues. I have a 302 with an Edlebrock performer intake and 600CFM carb. With the air cleaner mounted I have only a 1/2 inch clearance between the air cleaner and the hood when it is shut. If you use a tall intake there could be issues with clearances. Just my .02$
:)
Hey guys,
well here's my 1st post ever here.
Hey Guys,
I built a 347 from a 302 in my car. What I have in mine is pretty much the same as you have listed above Dave except for the AFR Heads and the Victor Jr Intake. I have not had this dino'd yet but let me tell you its has allot uf get up and HOLD ON!!!! I have $4,000 in the engine build and what I ended up with was well worth the money.
Phil
Phil, I'm curious--you say you started out with a 302, did you start out with a 5.0 HO motor or just a garden variety 5.0? I understand the firing order is different between the two, not sure why, but the camshaft grind must also be different. I'm just curious as I own 2 garden variety 302/AOD combo's, bot sitting out of the cars right now, and I plan on starting a build on one very quickly. I'd be interested in knowing if either of them are worth using or if I might need to get an aftermarket block (that will eventually happen, but right now I'm more interested in getting the drivetrain up and going so that when I do order the kit I have that part taken care of.
Thanks!
Doug
Hey Doug.
The firing orders are deternined by the cam shafts. Either one will work in either block.
13726548 for late model 302 and 351 motors. If you are using EFI, this is the one to use.
15426378 for early 302.
It should say on the cam sheet the firing order to use.
Either of your blocks would be fine to use for a build. I would pick the one in the best physical shape with the least wear.
The area I would be concerned about would be bottom end strength. The 2-bolt mains can "walk" under high stress, with disatrous results. Putting a mains "girdle" on the motor will strengthen it considerably.
Evan
Well, that's good news, Spuddyboy--thanks so much!
The two choices are: 1985 Thunderbird with over 300,000 miles and 1990 Crown Vic with about 130,000 miles.
Hey Dugly,
At first glance, I would go with the crown vic motor. As long it is straight and true, and there are no cracks or other problems.
You can use the other for a spare! What a luxury!
Using the 13726548 firing order for a carb motor is no problem. That's what I am using on mine.
I think the EFI electronics were only made with this firing order. You may need to change the cam anyway if you switch from carb to EFI. It may require a different grind.
BTW, there are aftermarket 4 bolt mains for the 302 block (and 351 too). Milodon is one manufacturer.
http://www.milodon.com/main-caps/main-caps.asp
Eagle makes them also.
www.eaglerod.com
They come with a drill guide and such.
I went with the girdle because I thought tying them all together would be stronger.
The 4 bolt caps would still depend on the block webbing for stiffness, I thought that they could still "walk" individually.
Be careful of clearance issues with the girdle! See my build thread. Make sure you get a girdle that will clear a stroker crank, if you are using one. Watch out for the oil pump too.
Regards,
Evan
eric, two companies you may want to look into for crate engines are rhino engines.com and carolina machine engines. both offer a variety of 351w eng. pusshing 375-385hp with tourque also in the high 300 range. Ive spoken w/ both co. lately and both offer a good warranty and support. Rhinos web site is being re-configured at the moment so you will need to wait a few days on them. Carolinas web site is www.cmengines.com. they have a good reputation in the hiperf world. their 351 runs for 3600. plus a moddest shipping charge w/ no core charge. You need to provide the fuel pump dist. and carb. edelbrock intake manifold is provided. It would be pretty hard to beat that price from any of the other eng. builders out there. good luck TK. in WA.
Thanks TK. I had heard of Carolina, but not Rhino. I'll check them out.
-Eric